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Recorded Conversations: Flavors of Black 003: Exploring the Caribbean

Photo by Bash Visual on Unsplash

In these conversations, we’re exploring what it means to be Black in the 21st century. We take a journey to describe Blackness in America, across Africa, and in this episode we look at the Caribbean.

Victor and I are joined by two special guests. The first is my wife Makenzie who is third generation immigrant of Grenadian and Dominican descent and Raoul Castro who was born in British Guyana and immigrated to America at age 11.

We give context to the question of “What is the Caribbean?” and touch on some of the history of the region. We also list numerous resources where you can learn more.

Resources

List of resources mentioned in this episode:

About Framed Perspective: Recorded Conversations

These recorded conversations started as a way to explore the idea of what does it mean to be Black in the 2020s. The conversations are meant to explore this topic connecting pre-slavery history with all that has happened throughout the diaspora up to present day. The hope is that these conversations will spark deeper dives into these topics both for us the hosts and the listeners. Recorded Conversations is hosted by Duane Rollins, a Native Black (descendant of slaves) and Victor Udoewa, a descent of Nigerian immigrants.

Rough Transcript

SPEAKERS

Victor Udoewa, Makenzie Rollins, Raoul Daniels, Duane Rollins

Duane Rollins  00:00

Duane again, here back with Victor. And we brought two special guests today to really continue our conversation around. We call them flavors of black, right? We previously discussed, like the different types of black people in America, we expanded that to see like on the continent of Africa, like, how's that really shaped the narrative of like blackness? And what does that mean there? Um, and today, we want to really talk about the Caribbean. So I'm joined by two special guests. First, I want to introduce somebody very near and dear to me. We'll talk about yourself and maybe your backgrounds without context, where you're coming from Caribbean sauce? Yes, definitely. So my name is Mackenzie Mackintosh. I'm Blaine's wife. He didn't guess in the name.

Makenzie Rollins  00:50

I am. My my grandparents are from the Caribbean. So I was actually born and raised in Long Island, New York, where they moved to, after they had started their life after getting married in Brooklyn. And my grandfather, he's from Grenada happens specifically carriacou Grenada, which is one of the smaller sister islands as part of the island nation. And then my grandmother, she's from the Dominican Republic. My grandfather, he was born in Grenada, and raised there and came to America, I want to say in his early 20s, whereas my grandmother, she was actually born in the US went back as an infant to Dominican Republic, or went to Dominican Republic as an infant, and was raised there until she was about maybe 10, or 11 years old. And then she moved to New York with our parents. And so her mom and her father, were both like born and raised in Dominican Republic, and they had wanted to kind of start setting up that life in the US. And I think it was because of the current dictatorship that was occurring during that time, which I think during the 30s, it was to heal which Lino Forgive me for the Miss mispronunciation. But you know, it was just a turbulent time. And so you know, as many people seeking a quote, unquote, better life in America from other countries, they immigrated to the US specifically in New York to start that life. And I was raised up by them, I was also raised by my mom, but I was raised by them in their household. And so I do have feel like I have a deeper connection with my Caribbean roots because of that. Whereas if, say, I was just raised by my mom, and we, you know, live outside of the house, I don't know if I would, you know, be as in tune with my background, as I am. And so that's just a little bit about my background. I'm sure we'll get more, you know, into it throughout the conversation. But you know, that's just to start that off.

Duane Rollins  02:53

Fantastic. Cool. I feel like I learned some things about you that didn't know before. So this conversation is enlightening. I'm also we're also being joined by roll if you want to kind of introduce yourself and give a little bit about your background so people can understand the perspective that you're coming from.

Raoul Daniels  03:10

My name is Raoul Daniels. It is a French spelling name ra o ul, but I'm named after Raul Castro, who, if some of us here are not old enough, the Castro's were actually the pop stars of the 60s and 70s in the Caribbean in political circles. So my dad being enraptured of the Castro's at the time, named me after Raul Castro. I was actually born in what's now called Diana, but used to be called British Ghana, to distinguish it from the Dutch, Ghana and French piano, which is in South America. We are the only English speaking country in South America and our culture most closely ties in with Trinidad, Barbados, Jamaica, and any of the rest of the English speaking West Indies. So we are mostly or we are black. Individuals included in this conversation, but just a hint at the history of the Caribbean. I am descended from several different races or ethnicities of people. my great grandparents are from several different places. They are from India. They are from Hong Kong in China. They are African, right, descended from slaves, but they're also my grandmother came from Dutch Guiana and has a bit of Javanese etc in her our ancestor Who we should have chosen his name was actually a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong named Mr. hosszu. My or his son who he had with a black woman. When the son chose to choose a name in order to go to school, instead of choosing his Chinese name, he went with the name of his mother. And so we became Danielle's as opposed to hold suit. But I guess call it an accident of history. I could have easily been, you know, Raul hosszu, or Raul polunin, which is another of my ancestral names. But you know, I'm Raul Daniels and identify here in America, at least as a black male.

Duane Rollins  05:50

Fantastic. And then I don't want to make any assumptions. Victor, do you have any ties to the Caribbean? Dead? We shouldn't know about or death? I don't know. Like, did you live there secretly for a number of years somehow?

Victor Udoewa  06:03

No, I don't have any ties. Not that I know of. In my family line. I've visited the Caribbean number different countries. So I have a lot of questions. For Makenzie roll, just listening to the intros.

Duane Rollins  06:14

Yeah, well, let me start off with like the first like, big question, which is, right, so what is the right a lot of people like, say, the West Indies, or you were speaking about French Ghana versus British guy, like, what is the Caribbean? Like, what does that mean?

Raoul Daniels  06:31

So if I can give a quick historical perspective before Makenzie, just because dealing with people like Victor have been forced to read lots and lots of books, ever since I was a child. And to match his historical breadth of knowledge, I've had to, you know, swallow an entire library. But the Caribbean is a strange, polyglot mixture of races, because most of us were colony, we were either slaves, or people trying to enslave us, or we became colonies. And then even later, when freed, we still were subject to some of the wider forces of the rest of the world. So, for instance, you know, many countries, the Spanish, at one point, owned most of the Caribbean, right, South America. Right. And the Caribbean, were Spanish owned, because they were the first ones to plant their flags in most places. The Portuguese did to a small degree, but the Spanish owned most of the land. So places like Trinidad and Tobago, right? Spanish, Jamaica, or Jamaica, Spanish, Grenada, Spanish, right? So most of the Caribbean hide Haiti, with the Dominican Republic against Spanish. So most of it was originally Spanish, but whenever there was a war in Europe, you traded your colonies. So if you were defeated, you hand it over your colonies to other people. So even my small little British Guyana in the in South America. Well, first owners were the Dutch than the French. There was some Spanish incursion from Venezuela. And then the last ones to come in were the British. So we ended up speaking English, but we have places such as better for walking. Right? I grew up on what was a former slave plantation called South Reinfeldt. Right. And we have villages like Versailles in in our country. Our capital city is Georgetown named after King George right. So yes, we speak English but the Caribbean is a polyglot there is the what used to be the French West Indies, Martinique, Guadeloupe, right. Dutch Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, right. Still some Spanish right South America, and you know, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic. Right. But in terms of European cultures, where everything Europe was, except were in a small geographic region, and having slaves from Africa, Portuguese from the area, Indians from India, Chinese from Hong Kong, right, and all these people forced to live together and, you know, survive.

Duane Rollins  09:48

Okay. there's anything you want to add to that?

Makenzie Rollins  09:52

No, I mean, I think he definitely explained it. He gave all of the details in history. You know, that I know people will be listening to this and they won't be able to see me, you know, shaking my head and agreeing with him in the background. But yeah, I definitely agree that the the Caribbean is interesting mixture of cultures and history. And it really does tell the story, I think of, you know, just the influence of the transatlantic slave trade, but as well as just occurrences that have happened in, you know, European history altogether. And also, you know, influential to the development of the America. So it's Yeah, it again, I completely agree with everything that he said, but the Caribbean is something that I feel like, I'm still studying myself. I mean, again, I wasn't born there. So there's a lot I feel like I have to learn about that history. One of those things being, you know, even still learning and going back to what he was saying, but the actual natives of the Caribbean, it's like the tainos, the Caribbean, I believe that era wax that, you know, originally inhabited those islands. There's just a lot to unpack there that I feel like a lot of people in historians haven't really even explored yet.

Duane Rollins  11:12

Like that. And, and when it comes to countries, like some places that has 26 countries, I've seen some sites listed as 13. Is there an official count on like, the number of Caribbean country? I think there's 13, like independent countries in the Caribbean. But do you know, okay,

Raoul Daniels  11:30

it depends on what you call the Caribbean, right? The Caribbean? Basically, if you look at the geographic, right, it's basically all the countries including what what's called a Caribbean ocean, right? But Guyana, which is in South America, is politically part of the Caribbean. So, in one of your previous episodes, Victor was mentioning like ECOWAS, right in the Caribbean, we have CARICOM, which is a economic free zone initiative of Caribbean countries, but they because of historical politics, they exclude the, the Spanish speaking and some of the French speaking, because some of the French speaking Caribbean are still departments of France, right? So for instance, they're not free countries, right? They're still colonial countries, so to speak. But you know, in our modern days speech, we don't call them colonies, we call them departments of France, right? So Caribbean, geographically, is anyone touching the Caribbean ocean? Right, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Haiti, all the way down to the coast of South America. Right. But you also have to consider the politics of the region. Are you French, Caribbean, Spanish, Caribbean, or Dutch Caribbean, there's still Aruba, Curacao on Bonaire thrown in there, because many of us are still tied to our European. Former colonizers, economically, culturally and in language. Right. So Caribbean is a an amorphous, and amorphous term.

Victor Udoewa  13:30

Yeah, it kind of brings a question that I have for you, Mackenzie, about your grandmother. So I've been to the Dominican Republic, and that borders Haiti, right. Yeah. And I've heard all different kinds of languages. They're listening and talking. So I was curious. One was your grandmother, is your grandmother, a, an afro Latina? And, okay, and that's all I was gonna ask you what, what languages does she speak?

Makenzie Rollins  13:57

So, my grandmother is definitely an afro Latina. She was a dark skinned woman. And I do think that I mean, we can go into a whole conversation about Dominicans and identity and blackness and all of that. But she was a dark skinned woman. And I know that in her time in the Dominican Republic, not that she was shunned, but like she had full knowledge that she was a dark skinned woman, because that level of blackness was just not, I guess, Bernoulli accepted during that time, especially under that dictatorship, where that dictator in particular was very fond of, you know, the Spanish Empire and, you know, wanted to be like a true Spaniard. So, you know, basically shunning any kind of level of blackness. And, I mean, that really reflected on their relationship with Haiti as well, which, you know, still has a long standing impact. But going to her language, she was a I think our first language was Spanish I vaguely remember her picking up other languages. I'm not sure if she picked it up when she was in the Dominican Republic and actually found this out. After she developed dementia, she kind of would revert back to those languages. So like, I grew up with her speaking English to me all the time, like perfect English. I would hear her speaking Spanish to family members and you know, to other people, like, you know, other Spanish speaking people. And, you know, that's when she would indulge in that. But any other times she would speak English. But the first time I heard her speak French, we were actually in a hospital with her. And, you know, it's just something that just came out. So I think it's one of those things where it was reverting back in it was pretty fluid. I'm not a fluent French speaker, but it sounded pretty good. So I mean, I have a feeling that my grandmother had some other languages under her belt that she just never say truly revealed to me because I was a great grandchild, and it's just a different point in her life.

Victor Udoewa  16:02

Yeah, that's interesting, bro. Do you do you know other languages?

Raoul Daniels  16:06

So we are the only English speaking country in South America. Right. But what is interesting about the the British or the English West Indies, is that we are the, our language our is the remnant of the language spoken by the slaves as they were brought from Africa to the Caribbean. So what is interesting is that if you ever get together with Nigerians or Ghanaians and you listen to what they refer to as pidgin English, you are going to find many similarities between Caribbean Creole English and African pidgin English, right? It is the language that so before to slaves when they were captured and taken to the coastal areas to be shipped, whether to Brazil, the Caribbean, the US, the slavers, were trying to teach them rudimentary English, so that they could communicate with them. And by the time they got over to their destinations, they would be able to understand some commands. So they taught them as best as they could. English, which became a creole language onto itself, pidgin English in Africa, and then our Creole English in the Caribbean. So we have some variants, because later the British would come in with the missionaries. So Barbados has a very distinct Caribbean Creole English accent, because they were taught mostly by Scottish missionaries. Jamaica was a bit of a hodgepodge, and is distinct within the Caribbean. So Jamaican patois or Creole is distinct from the rest of the Caribbean. But most of us in Grenada, Bahamas, some of the other small islands and Ghana speak with a particular accent, right? That is changed with a bit of the British, but also again, it's the pidgin English from Africa that's most closely related. Because what we also did was keep a lot of the African words, one of the words I just discovered, speaking to an African friend that I was shocked about was the word yam. Right Nam, in Jamaican patois means to eat. In the rest of us. We knew it as they eat fast, right? But it comes from a language called bhullar. That is spoken in Senegal, and Mauritania, and in the African language, it just means simply to eat. But we kept it in our Creole English just to mean to eat fast. Right. So one of the one of the things that I am most proud of our Creole English is that it is the remnant of the language that the slaves brought with them. So even though when you went to school you were taught proper pronunciation and British Spelling's right. And the you know, proper language at work, or in education is the British Standard English, Jamaican patois, Beijing Creole and the rest of them. This is our history.

Duane Rollins  19:35

Okay, following up on that you kind of talked about when you did your introduction that in America, you refer to yourself as black. I would love for you to like kind of unpack a little bit like what does it mean to be black in the Caribbean versus black and America to you if Black is a thing at all and the Caribbean from your perspective?

Raoul Daniels  19:54

So you guys touched on this in some past episodes, right? That it depends on where you are. If you're in a mostly black country, who cares, right? Because if we're all black in the country of, you know, let's bring in the mythical Wakanda, then it goes back to your tribe that you identify with within that black world, right? So, growing up in the Caribbean, we didn't have an overwhelming need to define ourselves outside of certain ethnicities or tribes, because we didn't have an overwhelming number of whites. By the time I grew up, we were moving from a colony, we were already going from a colony to an independent country, and the few whites who owned most companies or land etc, had left the countries, right, some of the governments had basically seize their properties, etc. So economically, there wasn't much for them, so they left the country. So the first time I saw what would be considered a fully white individual, were some tourists when I was about 11 years old. Right? Before that, our governments never mandated that anyone had to fill out any forms with a race. So it wasn't as if growing up, anyone pointed out to me that I was a black male, or, you know, anything, because there was no other to define yourself against. So what we are what we did, which, you know, this is some of American history, we identified according to our ethnicities, and our mixtures. So within the Caribbean, or within Guyana, there's a reference to what's called a dougla. And a Douglas simply is a creole person, you're African ancestry, and you're mixed with Chinese East Indian, or you could even be mixed with white or Portuguese, right. So I am a dougla. In Ghana, meaning that I come from a mixed ancestry Asian, in the African, right, coming to America, I arrive, I go to middle school, and immediately someone says I need to write down something on paper. And I've never done that before. So in the 1980s, the categories were more geographic. So I was actually a Hispanic for most of the 80s, because I was born in South America. And the racial categories were aligned with geographic categories. So I actually was forced by the government definitions to identify myself as Hispanic in the 1980s, then they rewrote the definitions. And then they made it you know, Black or African American by ancestry, meaning that if politically, you felt you were Black or African American, you weren't forced to identify yourself geographically with where you were born. So even though right in my own country, no one cares about what race I am, right? And I don't have to fill out any forms when I came to America. And I was forced or asked to do so. I identified first as Hispanic because of geography. And then as black simply because of politics and history. Right at the African is most dominant within my history. So that's what I choose.

Victor Udoewa  23:39

And I kind of I wanted to hit upon something. Exactly. Because you talked a little bit about this about the different the different kinds of people shades, right, that you saw, both of you mentioned that. And I I've had various conversations with different people that have talked about countries throughout Central America, and South America. And when I say Central America, I'm including all of the islands, the Caribbean islands, that have suggested to me that in most places, this might not be true. And I want to know what you all think, to be the the people who are the worst off the most marginalized, tend to be the darkest people like the black people, right? So good examples. I have a friend who lived in Colombia for a number of years. The poorest communities, the one that was the worst off were the afro Colombians. I don't know how prevalent that is how far that goes, how much colorism is, and I'm curious what you all know that I've experienced with that. Have seen that in your family lens. So we can see

Raoul Daniels  24:55

I'll refer

Makenzie Rollins  24:58

so what I will say Is I guess just Well, let me say this Grenada is mostly like brown skin, dark skin black, like you do have that variation of shade. But from my observation, from what I've been there, and I've only been there like one time for like a very short period, like a couple of weeks, you know, what I observed is that, you know, everybody there kind of looks all like us. So I didn't necessarily see that kind of difference in terms of, oh, all the darker skinned people are poor, or all the lighter skinned people are better off kind of thing. I'm not in that particular round. But I do know, like, say, in the Dominican Republic, it from what my grandmother has described, to me, it is a little different. Like, I know, she always felt like she faced a lot of discrimination. And I mean, she brought her kids there when she was younger. But even when she went to go visit, they kind of treated her like an outsider, because she was dark skinned and had coarser hair, to the point where they would talk about her in Spanish and the hair salons there and not knowing that she's, she speaks fluent Spanish, and that she was like she was raised there. So I know that that's something that was, I don't know, if it I don't want to say it necessarily scarred her. But it's something where I don't think she looked as fondly on the Democratic Republic as saying my grandfather did on Grenada, to the point where she never brought me there. She would tell me stories about her life, but her stories will always be, you know, we were poor. And all this stuff happened. And then we left and that was that. So yeah, I mean, it's hard to say in terms of my observation in the Caribbean, because I've only been to so many countries at this point in time. But I feel like I do see that in America, where you do have darker skin, people or you know, brown skinned people in general, are generally on the side of, you know, your lower income, like I work for DC, Medicaid, and I can say, you know, just based off of the demographics that we have in our population, it's a majority black population, which, you know, considering this as chocolate city, and that there's a abundance of opportunity, in that the programs in DC do offer residents so much that they would be better off, but to me, there is something systemic that has to be there to continuously push them down. And again, just considering, like my grandmother's experience with, you know, her being of darker skin, and from my observations in general in life, like I do think that it's something that exists, I just haven't necessarily seen it firsthand, say when I've visited Caribbean countries.

Raoul Daniels  27:53

So regarding color and economics, right. Although the Caribbean was part of the European slave trade, etc. One of the things having grown up there, up to the age of 13, that I escaped, and I thank God for this every day, is that I never associated color, with achievement. And by that, I mean, people create the mythical world of Wakanda and put it into a popular movie. But what conda exists, right, as a realistic society, in many parts of the world, right? Where the color of your skin had nothing to do with your wealth, or achievement or your ability. So growing up, right, I mean, we we had the color bar, let's call it same as in America with the octoroon and quadroon. And whatever, right? We have the shades of color, because, for instance, the British chose to bring six different, what we might call ethnicities, or races into a tiny little country, and told these six different races that we could care less you are going to find a way to survive, right. So but growing up, I saw and we have people that were dark skinned that we would call them blue blacks. You're so black, you are blue. But in my mind, I never associated that darkness with achievement, because my prime minister was a dark skinned man. My president was a dark skinned man. I played every day with people of African descent, Indian descent, China. I played everyday with these people. I celebrated their religious holidays and they celebrated mine. So it wasn't a mythical Wakanda. It was just a society in which kids actually grew up not believing that color had anything to do with achievement. Now, economically, as darker or African descended people, we are not the top of the society as a group, because after slavery, right, the British free their slaves earlier than America did. So they banned importation of slaves right after the 1800s, the early 1800s. They freed the slaves by 1834. Okay. What they then did is to bring in all the other people to offset So what, you know, just a quick history of Ghana, the slaves used to save money while they were enslaved, the ones who had skills were rented out, and they would find surreptitious ways to hide money. So as soon as slavery was over, miraculously, these ex slaves pooled their monies together and bought land that they turned into villages. Right? So these were people, smart, intelligent, hard working. Now, they then formed pools of labor and went back to the plantations and said, you know, hey, slavery is done. If you want us to work for you, and keep your economic system going, we would like such and such a renumeration call it a minimum wage, right? The British aligned with the plantation owners thought this is this is terrible. We're just going to go to Madras, India, and we're going to get these indentured servants and bring them over, we're going to go to Madeira in Portugal and bring these Portuguese over. And we're going to go to Hong Kong and get these poor Chinese and we're going to bring them over all to break that labor pool of the African descended people, right. So over time, right, some of those Chinese became the middle class, they dominated the retail sector, the Indians actually went ahead and dominated the agricultural sector, right? The whites promoted some of the fair skinned people that spoke very good English, etc, into the what we call the, the, the government, etc, right? The Civil Service. So the civil service, certain people began to dominate that. And those people over time, became the upper class of society. But I was still able to grow up in the 1970s. And the 1980s. Not associating color, with economic or educational achievement.

Duane Rollins  33:02

So building on that you said, you know, as you grew up, you didn't associate color with economic achievement, right? Or performance? Did that change once you moved to America? And what was your first impression of, let's say, black Americans, as you came over from British Ghana?

Raoul Daniels  33:21

So I was 13. Right? I was malnourished, so I was much smaller than most of my associates at that time. But I found black Americans, and Americans in general is shocking. Now, this was before the age of worldwide television, I had not watched television or any of those things. We didn't have the right, this is pre Internet, and all those things. So as you traveled, you're actually going from one world to a completely different world, right? Because you've not seen their television, node near language, their dress, their food, etc. So I arrived in America, right? Lots of things are new. But you know, I start the eighth grade. And I let everyone know, you know, my intentions are to become the president of this country. And they look at me as if I'm from Mars. You know, why would you have such a preposterous idea, and a lot of this was coming. You know, I went to a majority, African American neighborhood, Junior High School, right? So here are my fellow Africans, or African Americans looking at me, as if I am the alien from Mars, because I make a declarative statement that my intention is to be the president of this country. And I, you know, they were shocked at what I was saying, and I was shocked at their reaction. Because my thing to them was, if I work hard, and I achieve a lot. Why can't I simply become the president? Right? I mean, that's what I was doing when I was in my little tiny country, was working hard to achieve educationally, and then hoping one day to have some economic gain. And if the President was the ultimate leader of my little country, then if I was the best, I would become that if I stayed in my country. And so even now I am in America. If I repeat the same things, I work hard, educationally, I gain economic achievement. Why can't I aspire to become the president of America? Now, it was partly my ignorance about the you know, the laws, etc. But what I always felt at that time, and I'm a bit more educated now, right, several decades have passed. And I've been able to read and educate myself. But I always I have always felt that Americans, black Americans grew up in a country that tells them who they will become. And they pass that on to their children. Right, whether consciously or not, to the point, that in 1984, if a young black child in America said, I am going to become the president of this country, even the adults, even black adults would correct that child. So I've lived long enough to see someone named Barack Obama. Right, become the president. So what do I teach my child? If he wants to become the president of this American country, then that is what he will do. He will achieve educationally and economically. And if he wants to become the president, so be it. So I bring that story up just to show you how different my world in the Caribbean was coming to America, and having people telling me that there was a ceiling on my achievement in 1984. And me letting them know that I kind of don't buy into that, you know, because it shouldn't be.

Duane Rollins  37:22

And then Mackenzie by following up on that. What was your experience, like from your grandparents, like they immigrated here? Did they raise you with that any sort of like limitations? Or like your mother? Did they originally limitations that, you know, your color might determine your overall economic or performance? in general?

Makenzie Rollins  37:42

No, no, no, they, they're, they were always very big on education, that education will be the key to get me to wherever I want to be. And so even to the point where, when I was applying for college, I had applied to Howard, which I was really excited to go to, because I had grown up in Long Island, in which case, I went to predominantly white schools my entire life. And I always had, you know, black friends around me and you know, the small pool of black kids that were at the schools. But I really wanted to have that experience of what would it be like to say go to a HBCU. And so I had also, at that time, gotten into Cornell University, and I was still really leaning towards Howard. And I know my grandparents were like, you should go to Cornell. their reasoning being, they did not feel that it was realistic for me to say, be around a lot of, I don't know, I guess like black Americans, like the world is going to be mixed. And that's where it is. And that's how you're going to learn to succeed in the world. And so, if that's something that was very big for them, is that you know, I pursue the American dream and the American way, and that if I do so then yes, I will achieve. And I mean, since I've discovered that there are different avenues of doing so, like, you know, I would love for my kids to go to my future child to go to an HBCU. I think that that would, you know, be extremely relevant, especially in these times, but I know that they're going to get an amazing education just as if they were to go to say, an Ivy League University. But, again, that's something that my grandparents, they never told me. You can't, you always can, but you should do it, you know, say in this way, because we came to America for a reason. So

Victor Udoewa  39:47

it's interesting because I, you know, I, I'm the first one of my family to grow up here. We're from Nigeria, and my parents had the same exact mentality like, they thought if I went to an HBCU That I wouldn't be able to compete against it, like, you got to go to the place where the white people are gonna show that you can compete with them, you got to do your, you know, that kind of thing. So it's just really interesting to hear you talk about that relatedly for both of you. I'm curious when I hear about all the commonalities of some of the different Caribbean countries, AND and OR territories or departments, you know, the Creole language, and then coming here and in the process of adjusting, like you were talking about and seeing the different reactions to your thoughts based on where you're coming from. I'm curious about the identity of black Caribbean's in the US. And is there a stronger connection to other Caribbean people? You know, Mackenzie, your parents are both greater than they married each other? Is there? Is there a strong connection to other black Caribbean people? That's stronger than this sort of a connection to black people from other other places? And how, how connected? Do you feel black caribbeans are to black Americans? Black us Americans, descendants of slaves.

Makenzie Rollins  41:16

So it's, it's a loaded question. So I'm gonna start with I'm gonna start with my experience at Cornell. So I grew up in Long Island, a lot of the people that I grew up with were black caribbeans, I actually grew up around a lot of Haitians. And when I went to school, that was the first time I was actually more so introduced to say, people who were, you know, from Africa, or like their parents were had had immigrated to Africa, from Africa, to the to the US, and they were born here. So that that was kind of my experience. But at Cornell, if we had like the Caribbean Student Association, like I still somehow gravitated towards, you know, other friends of Caribbean backgrounds. So I had a lot of friends that, you know, were Jamaican, I had a lot of friends that still were Haitian or from other areas. at Cornell, they played a lot of Western music, like a lot like almost all of the parties that we would hear Soca, like a Soca said, we would hear reggae, we would hear it all. And I know that that's kind of like a branch of the fact that we're in upstate New York and in downstate New York, that's something that you would hear a lot if you go to a party. But you know, I still felt like I was emerged in kind of that Caribbean experience. But at the same time, I was more exposed to more African Americans and really understanding what that was. And it's weird, because I feel I feel like growing up, I was always treated as African Americans more so and not saying that in a negative way. But you know, if I talk to a white person, I immediately think, oh, you celebrate Kwanzaa? And it's just like, No, I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I don't really know what that is like, right? That's not something I grew up with. And that's also not something that I've seen from my African American friends is like characteristic of their household. But you kind of get stereotyped into that, well, you're not anything else. You're just, you know, this, this black American. That's here. So I'm going to consider you African American. But I've always found those pockets to this day. Most of my friends are Caribbean, or actually East African, which is very interesting problem, because I live in DC. And, you know, it's I don't know what it is. But I think it's just that that shared culture, just you know, that spark where you just gravitate, I was actually surprised that I ended up marrying an African American, I always thought I was gonna end up with someone of a listing and background or other immigrant background, but you know, here we are.

Raoul Daniels  43:57

And I'm sure you're right. Just to give you a little parable, one of my soul, one of my friends and I who were heads up the Caribbean Students Association at Cornell, once gave us a parable that the only differences between the people of African descent in the Caribbean and the Americas were the price of slaves on the particular day that the slave ship came into port. Right? If slaves were selling for more in Jamaica, or Barbados, or Guyana, or even in the Americas in Florida, right, that's where the ship would go and sell the slaves if it wasn't already contracted to deliver slaves in some particular place. So as much as people of African descent, might want to point their differences they may only be separate paraded by 200 years possibly descending from the same tribe, family, village or country, right. So as in modern times, we point to our differences. Keep in mind that you are only as separate as the price of slaves. That particular time when the slave ship came into board, you know, with myself, just using some of my college experiences. I was head of the Caribbean Students Association, right. But remember, this is Caribbean, we had green eyed red here, Chinese of Jamaican descent, along with full blooded, East Indians, right? We're separated by 50 to 100 years from India. Right. So we also hung out with the Indian Students Association, we celebrated Diwali and Bagua, and all these things that we used to do in our own childhood, we hung out with the African Students Association, whether they were Ethiopian or South African. We cooked similar foods, right? So we knew what Fufu and all of the cassava leaves and all these things were. So we went and hung out with them and ate their foods and celebrated their holidays. We hung out with let's see, Indian, African American students write the African American or the black Students Association. We hung out with them, because, again, there were more similarities than differences. So we just hung out with everyone. But there are portions of my population, African descended Caribbean people who may wear the culture, our history, like a jacket. Yeah. When I move to someplace cold, I wear a different jacket. And when I move to someplace warm, I take the jacket off, right? Such is our history because we moved so much we came as slaves. And then when there was work in Panama, Jamaicans trinidadians, barbadians and Guyanese packed up and went to Panama. Yeah. So you meet Panamanians with English surnames, and you find out there only one or two generations separated from the rest of us in the Caribbean. Right. But now, instead of assuming that there are acting African American, they'll choose the Spanish identity more than they will be African American. Right. So you because in our history, we we moved and traveled and went to different places, right? Some of us were our African descended culture, like a jacket, I would hope that I am not one of those.

Duane Rollins  48:02

Love that in my experience was actually very different in that, you know, most of my family actually went to HBCU. Like the vast majority, and it was never a thing in my household, or growing up that, like college was this some unattainable thing, because most my grandmother, my grandmother, my great grandmother had 11 kids, most of them went to school. But I am Muslim, graduated college, and almost everybody in my family went to an HBCU. So at least for undergrad, so I broke the mold by going to a BWI or a predominately white institution when I went to school, and it wasn't like one of those things where like, watch don't want to go to HBCU is like, well, I wanted to do engineering. I didn't necessarily want to go to the same school that my brother went to because he went to at&t. And I thought that was the best school for like engineering. And so there were other schools that were really great engineering, one of which being Virginia Tech and was like, Well, great. I get a scholarship to go there's a really strong engineering school. I that's what kind of makes sense, but it was no other school that really stood out for engineering. It was an HBCU well, right, have it in North Carolina a&t. So that's kind of how the decision like at least went for me. But the one thing that I've noticed too, Bob being a you know, a native black, is that you're always kind of pushed towards doing things that give you that where people can't take away your dignity. Yeah, right. So like they push you to like professions. That sound good because they feel like hey, if you do this, nobody can take away your did your dignity or you end up being somewhat egotistical, hyper aggressive about who you are, because you always felt on the rise no matter where you were. Right. So if you went to America, you other if you went to Africa, if you went to Caribbean, you were other. So you just had this strong sense of self in order to survive, but it was a sense of pride to is like, no matter what happened to me, I was so bad, my people. I was abused. My land, people spit or talk about how we don't achieve. But yet I'm still here. I'm a survivor. Right? So it was like this great sense of pride of being a survivor to the point where you almost didn't want to accept or take in anything else from the Caribbean culture or African cut culture. Because to be a black American to assimilate almost meant that you were killing yourself. Right, because you had no other country to go to. And if you assimilate to is like, yo, you submit it to the, basically like your master, when you give it. So it was like this notion of Hey, like, you really have to have this strong sense of self. And it was like all the seeking, and I think now, particularly because of music, is what I'm gonna say. There's been a greater appreciation for the connectedness, yeah, right of the entire diaspora. And I really do attribute music to it, both with the rise of hip hop will also bring him back, you know, dancehall and Soca. And like, now in the inner age, you really get to see it and celebrate it, thinking of Afro beats and how that's been exploding, right? Because if you think about America, they say the biggest thing that we export is culture. Well, one of the biggest cultural points we have is our music, all of which are rooted in African American tradition. Right? So it was a way for people to get to know us on our terms. And then for us to go those places and really learn them. And I think there's just a really great connection between, you know, what's happening in the Caribbean and the diversity there and, and learning about that, and really understanding it and celebrating it. And in thinking about what does that mean to be black, like in general, because it's a term now and is more widely used, but not necessarily as appropriate for other people in different countries? Because as you pointed out, and some places will, if everybody looks the same, it just doesn't matter as much as we try. Right, or your economic status while you're there. So I know this is like a very rich conversation. But in and of itself, though, the one thing I wanted to kind of leave us one was, are they any, like resources, books, on people to follow documentaries that people can maybe look into to learn more about the Caribbean culture, and particularly the black Caribbean culture and how that might be the place for them to explore this topic, like further.

Raoul Daniels  52:24

So I feel handcuffed because I don't have my library of several 100 books displayed in my background. I started becoming really popular now with zoom meetings that have to sit in front of your books. And because my book collection, which I started back when I was in college and have kept for now 20 some odd years and build up on right, it is amazing. I'm amazed that books and bookshelves has become so popular during the pandemic. If I started talking about books and authors, I would probably take hours so I will just I've been having some of these conversations with some Caribbean remnants of my Caribbean Association here in Austin, so some of them are still at the top of my mind. Right. On the third voyage of Columbus, there was a priest bartholomay della casas that traveled on the third voyage, he wrote a book called The destruction of the Indies, to document some of what they did, and what he saw. He was more bias right? Remember the Spanish thought in the beginning that they would conquer the native our wax dinos and Caribs that they met, but they ended up wiping out most of them through disease and war. But that was one of the first books written in the early 1500s. Right, Columbus first voyage was 1492. And by the time the third voyage, this priest bartholomay de casas travels on the third voyage and writes the destruction of the Indies, right. We get other sporadic books by various European authors, but nothing outstanding, right? until there was a rash of books authored by African in some cases, slaves or ex slaves, right. One of the more famous was the autobiography ladi equiano. Right, supposedly descended from Nigeria, sent to the Caribbean, then sent to England where he began writing, right and he was involved in some of the the slave right, free to slave movements. Or laddie equiano Otherwise known as gustavus fossa, one of his books, right is was by one of the first ex slaves to have written a book in Europe, right. And then widely distributed, because he lived off of the the ramp the sales of those books, but because he traveled from Africa to the Caribbean, and then to Europe, an excellent narrative of what it was like, right, he was a supervisor manager in a slave plantation. Right? Because I mean, they are blacks who owned either blacks or blacks who moved up within that hierarchy. Modern day authors, you have CLR James that came out of Trinidad, right, who started off with mentality, but came to America and wrote some scathing critiques of the American system, right, because he was in the south, trying to help with some of the voting rights, and they jailed him at Ellis Island in New York. And while he was there, right, this was a guy who was a communist, if you want to call it that, but one of the brilliant Caribbean authors, all right, so CLR James, he was involved. There was a course taught at Cornell years ago, that was called Caribbean identity, that was taught by a Trinidadian visiting professor, who, as I was there, I got to take the class. And here this guy gave us hundreds of books that I was able to document and then try to collect as much as I could, right. But we have others like Michael Manley, the ex Prime Minister of Jamaica, who wrote the history of the West Indies. And some others. You have. I'm thinking of the Trinity. Let's see. Trinidadian Prime Minister, Eric Williams, right. Excellent author wrote about slavery, etc, but also wrote about history of Jamaica. Right. Cheddi Jagan wrote some books about Ghana, okay. But like I said, if we went down this book path, or famous authors of the Caribbean, it would take hours to go through that, because I still have my college notes from 20 some odd years ago. So I'm going to pass over to Mackenzie, she's a bit younger than I, so possibly you have some newer stuff.

Makenzie Rollins  57:37

So unfortunately, I don't have a lot of, say, history books that I am, I'm privy to, I'm really well, I love history, but I also love fiction. So I've been trying to discover more authors of Western Indian descent that, you know, go in that direction. So my favorite as of right now as Roxane Gay, she's been my favorite for a number of years. The first book I read from her untamed state, which is a fictional account of a kidnapping that actually occurs in Haiti. But what is interesting about it is the woman who was kidnapped, she's actually of Haitian descent. She spent some time in Haiti, but her parents immigrated to America raised her there. And she was schooled in the American system. And it's kind of that exploration of her identity as she's going through this tragic event as well. So that's something that was really interesting. She also has another book, which I haven't had the opportunity to read yet the amazing things called at, and I believe it's a count of the history of Haiti. Within again, I've heard really great things about that. Marlon, James is another author that I really enjoy. The book that I love the most, from him so far is the book of night women. And essentially, that tells the story of a a group of women who are essentially you can Americans will consider them witches, but they practice in, you know, traditional African, traditional African religions and rituals, and so on and so forth. And it's told from the perspective of a lighter skin, mixed slave who have it, you know, Black Heritage, and then of course of one of the slave owners. And so that is really interesting. He has a number of really interesting books to the other one is A Brief History of Seven Killings, which is a fictional account of the attempted assassination of what's his name? Who is the famous singer? I don't know why I'm blanking on Bob

Raoul Daniels  59:49

Marley. Yes, yes. You wrote.

Makenzie Rollins  59:52

Yes.

Raoul Daniels  59:53

I almost got to see him in person. I believe it was 2019 when he came to the University of Texas, Marlon, Marlon James, but working on miss the speech and only got to see him afterwards.

Makenzie Rollins  1:00:08

Yeah, no, he really is an amazing author. And then one that I actually she's actually Grenadian or her family is from Grenada, Audrey Lorde. She's a famous poet, I'm sure you guys have heard of her in passing at some point in time. But the book that really stuck with me and I actually read this app right now is called zombie and the spelling of my name. And essentially, it is a story of her upbringing and her identity in West Indian living in America, living in New York, specifically, and then also living her life in America and what that means, and also it tackles sexuality, because she was a lesbian. And you know, how that fit into her identity, both culturally and you know, within society. So that was an extremely touching book that I've read a couple of times, and she's become one of my favorite authors over the years. So those are the few that I can think of right now. I think, if any, I'll definitely let me know. So that we can share with this group.

Raoul Daniels  1:01:16

So I didn't want to appear biased, but I cannot leave this session without mentioning two of the most important books ever written about Africa, African history. Right. Walter Rodney, a guy knees, who spent a year at Cornell, right between 73 and 74, at the Africana center, okay, and went back to Ghana later on. So his most famous book, is how Europe on the developed Africa. And if you have never read this particular book, about the history and why Africa is the way it is, in relation to Europe today, read this book before you die, because it explains just about everything is first. What was it been his PhD thesis was the history of the upper Guinea coast. Right? The how Europe underdeveloped Africa is a progression from that. But you know, as a Caribbean scholar who was killed or died very early in life, right, he would have been one of the preeminent scholars in the world today. Had he lived to his full, you know, his full age. Right. Ivan van certainly is also a very famous author. Right? That is, comes out of Ghana again. But he actually studied on the sheik and Dr. Wright Senegalese. So golden age of the Moore's, and the three invasions of Spain by the North African wars, and how the transition from Greek culture to the Arabs and then from the Arabs to Western Europe, right. Why is Western Europe, the predominant center of knowledge and civilization as we know it today? Right, golden age of the Moors and other books by not only van Surma, but his mentor Sheikh, Dr. Okay. So again, I would be doing a disservice if I didn't mention these people, and these particular books, so thanks for the time.

Duane Rollins  1:03:45

Love that. Victor. Any other thoughts from you? Or things you want to call? No, I

Victor Udoewa  1:03:51

just, I want to thank you both. I really appreciate the diversity of literary genres. Just because specifically, there are people that don't read fiction, but they might read nonfiction or there are people who don't read nonfiction and fiction is accessible. So having a plethora of options is really cool, because different people grab gravitate to different things. So I really appreciate that. It's been a really good conversation. And I learned a lot and I'm gonna be thinking about a lot after this is over.

Duane Rollins  1:04:19

Yeah, I love it. Also, I think we have a lot to take for here.

Makenzie Rollins  1:04:23

Yeah, and thank you guys for including me. I feel like I learned a lot about Caribbean history in general. You know, it's, it's something that I'm excited to learn more about, especially as you know, Dwayne, and I sometime in the future embark on you know, building a family because it's, again, I'm a second generation immigrant here. I want to I want to pass on that culture. To my kids. I don't want it to get lost because you know, we're in America is very easy for those things get lost if you don't share it with your children. If you don't give them History. So I'm trying to do what I can now all too young Bob

Raoul Daniels  1:05:08

Marley, yeah. Three years old. But that's your future.

Duane Rollins  1:05:16

The baby looks just like our cousin.

Makenzie Rollins  1:05:18

Yes. So all the little boys in my family they have like the hair that But no, this is been extremely helpful. I'm definitely gonna, you know, purchase some of those books on Amazon following this conversation.

Duane Rollins  1:05:34

Love it.

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