Recorded Conversations: Flavors of Black 005: Black Nihilism

Duane Rollins -
Photo by Gary Meulemans on Unsplash

In this conversation, we discuss the concept of Black Nihilism. We dive into what it means and how we can use it to better understand all that is happening around us today.

We also list numerous resources where you can learn more.

Resources

List of resources mentioned in this episode:

About Framed Perspective: Recorded Conversations

These recorded conversations started as a way to explore the idea of what does it mean to be Black in the 2020s. The conversations are meant to explore this topic connecting pre-slavery history with all that has happened throughout the diaspora up to present day. The hope is that these conversations will spark deeper dives into these topics both for us the hosts and the listeners. Recorded Conversations is hosted by Duane Rollins, a Native Black (descendant of slaves) and Victor Udoewa, a descent of Nigerian immigrants.

(Really) Rough Transcript

SPEAKERS

Victor Udoewa, Duane Rollins

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Victor Udoewa  0:02

I have it. Actually, I'm not as familiar with the, the framing of it from that perspective. So I've, the term that I've, I've come across and in conversations on things like that is Afro pessimism, and I noticed you said after idealism some I'm curious about what afro-nihlism necessarily means if it's the same as Afro pessimism or where you've seen it, but I can talk about Afro pessimism and maybe we mean the same thing.

Duane Rollins  0:36

We might mean the same thing but as I was looking at afro-nihlism is that notion that due to the structures of anti black racism that for a lot of black people life just has no meaning and no point. Right. So it involves some of this pessimism right around now is nothing we can do to really change right anti blackness. Therefore, life has no meaning. Right, existence might not matter, like, an assassin is the way of the defeated mind. Right, or the defeated existence in that, you know, no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, no matter how good you are, how smart you know how much integrity you have, there's always going to be the sense of somebody tearing you down or taking something from you because of it so why even work hard, while even like kind of go through with trying to achieve. Because no matter what if you do achieve like it'll all just be stripped away. Once you, you know really build something that's like meaningful. So like nothing matters.

Victor Udoewa  1:54

Okay, yeah, that sounds like the same thing. I mean, I would add that in Afro pessimism. Another way maybe, maybe a more simple way of thinking about it is that it's a view that holds that the position that African Americans have had in slavery days is fundamentally unchanged. Right, so they're still viewed as they were in those days. And it's a view that I guess kind of is what you were implying has no hope. So it's kind of funny that the people that I know that are, that have that come from that perspective of viewpoint, or at least that talk about explicitly academics, right, they're professors. They're scholars. But when I think about in popular writing right are popular speakers who might write a popular books. The most prominent Afro pessimist I know, I think would be Tallahassee coats. And what's interesting about it when I think about it. Every time I've seen him on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every time I've seen him on whatever the show is called that's hosted by Stephen Colbert, and it was called The Tonight Show or the show. The last question that Trevor Noah and Stephen Colbert always ask him is, and they'll say it's like okay well I always ask you every time you come on here I just want to check Do you have any hope. And that's what I kind of thought it was interesting, I mean I knew why they asked that because when you read his writing it puts you down like you don't feel good. Right. Um, but I didn't know he was actually like an entire perspective shared amongst a lot of people that it became named that talks about this extreme type of despair about the situation that it is fundamentally unchanged and it never will, for many of them change. So yeah, that's another way of saying that the position that there has is every day is the same.

Duane Rollins  3:55

Yeah. And what I will note about it, is that when they talk about Afro realism or black realism. It generally is referring to blacks in America from a lot of the work. Debt like I was reading and they go all the way back to. Invisible Man right that book, and the notion that is a black man is like a nameless character. Right, throughout this entire light book, his journey his struggle is not really being seen. Right. and there's another aspect of it too, particularly in a black feminist moment or black woman is movement where their gender is not necessarily seen, apart from their blackness. Right, so it's like blacks almost neutral like you're black and it's quote unquote bad, Right. And you're treated a certain way because you're black, gender aside. Now there's other things that happened because of you know different genders that you know i think you know warrants a much deeper like more nuanced conversation but the idea is that even your gender is like, you know, not as considered and you might, you know, look at you know, black masculinity and some of the things that we talked about. There's also having this you know pervasive way of saying like, it doesn't matter. Right, like, you know what what is happening to you, or you know what you can achieve doesn't matter. But I will note that it seems to be much more of a black American thing than the black immigrant experience.

Victor Udoewa  5:34

Yeah,

I do hear you on that I was at the National, I think it's called the National Black convention. I think it's, I feel like it's the first attempt but maybe I just don't mind history. But anyway, they brought it, they at least restarted it or it started last year it's only 20. Anyways virtual. And there was one section on it, that hit me related to what you're talking about and it was about immigrants. So this person, and I can share we can share the video link later in the

resources. What did a short talk it might have been less than five minutes but about the difference between immigrant experiences in the US. And so I didn't, I didn't know right because in the US we talk a lot

about the Latin American immigrant experience, right, we think about initiatives like DACA whether people afford against it you know it's it's mainly focused on those people. I'm in DC one of the biggest immigrant communities, the two biggest are Ethiopia and El Salvador. But we talked about the status of El salvadorians, and unnecessarily building. But this woman in this video. During this national bank convention last year in 2020, was saying that, even as immigrants, the immigrants who are most discriminated who are more likely to have a bad experience more likely to be treated unfairly are the black immigrants is really an interesting I didn't, I didn't realize this, because of the closest that we have the border we show in Mexico and Central America, so I'll definitely share that. but even if even though Afro pessimism Afro realism is focused on African Americans, I think because of the confines of the fact that we're in America that some of those effects may spill over to even immigrants, even though they're not African Americans but they're here within the American context, seen as similar. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah.

Duane Rollins  7:37

Yeah. And I should note that Invisible Man is it really captures some of this idea of like black journalism, but it really is a conversation about contemplating the meaning of life, not necessarily that there is no meaning, like at all, so it sits on the opposite end and in terms of the book is the archetype for black existentialism, but black middle ism, you can kind of see some of that in the book if you just think about being like nameless, right, or invisible like in society doesn't matter. But yeah, it's a, it's like a, like a heavy subject by yeah and i will say like, like one It seems like it's in the realm of academics. It really exploring and or philosophers right exploring and thinking about concepts of blackness and what it means to be black in America and how to move us forward. But one way that the notion of black male ism has been rejected was with the election of Obama who literally ran on a campaign of hope. Yeah, right, which is a fundamentally like a rejection of that. But it goes back to that point I was saying that some of the black nihilism is different because it is. He did come from an immigrant. Right. And so his perspective might also have been waived by that and being of mixed race might also have changed like some of the ways that he views on those things but it is this notion of like, how does hope play versus, hey, these people are anti blackness is anti blackness you aren't really going to change it. So, a lot of times it feels like you're screaming in a whale. Right, or you're screaming at a wall and nobody's going to hear you, that doesn't really matter.

Victor Udoewa  9:33

The set of interviews I think it's for three or four interviews by the Atlantic. I can't remember what year was done in but it was Ta-Nehisi Coates, who I would call them Afro pessimists interviewing, President Obama who I would call Afro optimist I don't know what to call them. So just like what you said, and it's really interesting because you can see, you can see Ta-Nehisi like in his mind struggling to understand this guy like he's like but but but didn't you. Did you think that maybe you weren't gonna win or did you think that it was impossible. And I was like no I, you know, I grew up why people, you know, always had, you know, I feel like everyone has a bit same basic wants and desires and needs, and it's so interesting to see kind of the stuff that goes on and in Takahashi's mind, and from the questions that he's given from growing up in Baltimore, in tough and rough neighborhoods, compared to Obama who grew up, Indonesia some part of his life Hawaii, other parts of his life. Yeah, it's just fascinating so I think we should add that into links so you can see kind of the two perspectives and conversation. Because he has this inherent optimism and ultimately leaves, it leads to different types of policy implications. I won't go too much into it but the whole debate, I think, in policies, what do you do about the black situation right. A lot of black people want you to do what might be called pro black policies do stuff that helps uplift the most vulnerable black communities communities of color, etc. Focus on the people that need help. And what Obama tried to do. Maybe because he didn't think that could pass was what's called Universalist policies, I'm just going to do something as General. And by nature of it helping you know, for people, it'll help poor black people or poor, you know, Latin x people or poor immigrant whatever. And the question is, does that work, you know what, where's the efficacy what's most effective kind of thing so it's interesting because it leads to this kind of policy implications.

Duane Rollins  11:46

Yeah, and you're seeing this play out from the people who say, Obama didn't do anything for black people or pushing that even further. Obama actually harmed black people like with his approach to Universal Life policies, and that things are so much worse for black people because of Obama and under Obama. And if you look at like some of his like starches like critics, right, and I don't think none of it actually falls in that category of being a staunch critic of Obama i think he kind of looks at the situation around it and is very critical of like the context in which these things happen. But if you look at, you know, maybe like Cornel West, and some of the comments and strong comments he had around how Obama was hurtful and detrimental to blacks, and then Dr Claude Anderson, right is also a very very very like staunch like Obama did nothing for black people or again. Even worse, Obama was actually harmful to black people right and I think they follow up more on that nihlism side versus, you know the optimists right or the people who are like more hopeful about the future and how things can change for black folks. Yeah,

Victor Udoewa  13:10

and I think that that might lead to why there is a pessimism because you can't. I don't think you could have been a pessimist. Right. Like, I saw I saw an interview of Ta-Nehisi Coates because he didn't you mentioned him in front of what it was, it was an interview of Ta-Nehisi he was in France, he was being interviewed by a French magazine and someone asked him something along the lines of what we're talking about. And he said, You know, I can't be the president. Yeah, for recognition acknowledgement of the fact that the position that he comes from doesn't allow society at least a predominantly white society to vote for it, right. He's a Cornel West can be president, right, because the position that Cornel West is occupying, I think, in my perspective is Victor talking now is a prophetic one right he's, he's coming out as speaking truth to power I don't have any problems with what he said, Now whether or not he should have said it in public or, you know, etc. I kind of I see him as a critic but I do see him as what I would call a critical supporter if that if that exists, but it. When you say things as they are and people don't think that they are like that they don't think that our country's like that, it's very hard to get elected. So, in order to have to get elected you kind of have to have a bit more of this is great or we can get along or integration or reconciliation or etc etc. But if you come out and say something like, hey there is no reconciliation without liberation. Right. It just makes it very difficult, which I think can feel the pessimistic perspective because it's like, well, if I can't say truth, and be in a position the truth, lead me to a position of power that it means everyone who's in power is is one that's not at least telling the full truth or, you know, or doing enough, right, it's kind of a cycle so it's it's it's weird but then some of that some of the incrementalist would like but, but that's what you need you need someone who can who can bring in white people just enough to get in power, and then begin to make incremental steps so people like no incremental ism doesn't work especially from like a trans black feminist perspective right radical was the word I was missing like a radical black feminist perspective, abolition is where it's at right the form isn't enough it isn't doing enough whether you're talking about capitalism, the prison industrial complex, what we call democracy etc It isn't doing enough and so they want to dismantle it and then reimagine it so I think that it leads to that cycle, because I think if you, if you speak the way some of these Afro pessimist speak is very difficult to, to be elected.

Duane Rollins  15:51

And I think we're also seeing this kind of play out and largest society when it comes to America this idea of nihilism like does any of this stuff actually matter, right, because we're looking at, you know, Trump, both his, his rhetoric, some of his policies. And the way that he acted, and then some people who previously were these moral or at least they had these stances of being like high morals and like high integrity, but then they allow somebody who was not that to be who they champion. Right, and was clearly not that right not like, Oh, this is just my opinion it was like well he kind of like proved himself, over and over again to not be that way. Yeah, now you have like again Lindsey Graham where you know again during the Clinton trials he was the first one like hey like family values these things matter and now all of a sudden they seem to not matter. Um in ways that don't add up right he's like spirit of democracy. Right. Yes, and I think a lot of people are like becoming disillusioned with the both the idea of the American dream. Right. And the idea of America, being in charge, right we're being leaders are being models, right that others should follow because they're seeing the warts, like of it all and the hopefulness around it isn't there. I think that's one of the biggest crises crisis that Biden and his administration are really going to have to like face right is can you get people to be hopeful and actually care and understand that, you know, what we have is something that's worth like keeping it working because right now everybody's looking like, I don't know if this is working at all like, I think Vita has taken a more like pro black policy stance and corporations are taking a pro black, you know, you know attitude towards how they're going out and doing their business, and we'll see how that what that leads to.

Victor Udoewa  18:02

Yeah. I mean, I might say that it can be helpful right to get to that point, right if you if you if you can't first realize what is happening, and grieve it right lament it and be like, oh gosh this is this is rough This is crazy. You can't address it. So, even if you're the decision, you know some people might go the route of okay it's an addressable and others might go the route of okay we can address it you first got to get to the point that oh this is here it exists. So from that perspective, it's a good thing for people to come to that place. The question is, I think, when you get to the afro pessimism app from nihlism is, has there been. That's the key question hasn't been progress. And so you know some people say yeah there's been progress, and maybe there has been, and then some people would say I think some of the pessimists are near this would say, Well, I feel like it's still here is changing forms. Right. And in that the reform movement seems not to be able to segment to put a hold on it to extinguish it to diminish it, it's just more managing it and squeezing it so that, it, it, it gets away and becomes in a different form. So it's a tough thing like I. Another resource I think we should add I was looking at there's a there's a paper by a first year graduate student, I think she's a black, black student I don't, I don't know, but a first year graduate student wrote a paper presented it at a conference, and it critiqued the book called algorithms of oppression the algorithms of oppression was a milestone book, when it came out by Dr. Professor noble, right, who talks about how it's built into the algorithms that you find at Google, but any of these other companies Twitter, Facebook, are the biases of the Cubs right so if you say Black Girls, and then it starts doing predictive text, you'll see all kinds of crazy stuff. You know what I mean. And so groundbreaking thing and she's like we got to do work to try to improve this and make this better yada yada yada. This book this paper that recently came out, it's a it's a conference paper. So she was given a talk at a conference wrote in a paper and then spoke. By this, graduate student basically critiqued it again coming from this kind of black radical feminist perspective which is like reform, you can't reform this thing. You can't reform the bias, out of these algorithms, out of these companies. How long have we been talking about the pipeline How long are we talking about diversity, equity inclusion. Nothing is happening. What we need is as a more of an abolitionist perspective that built into the very nature of, of, of algorithms etc is bias and we need other ways of of reimagining how to, to get information and navigate the information within this world, etc. So, Professor noble felt really. I feel like she felt her, because she went on Twitter and said, Wow, I just got told by some first year, I don't think she's at first aggressive and but someone said my work, wasn't good enough or radical enough and then it was weird because she was using her power. She has a following she's a professor she's well known as a huge. This book is huge. To gather support people like oh that that graduate student is wrong, or they're new they just don't know why do people have to come in academia and the only way they think they can rise up is to tear someone down yada yada yada. And you'll see when we share, I will share the Twitter thread as well that I think. Professor Nova was missing the that she doesn't come from a perspective that is an abolitionist perspective so she, I think misunderstands what it means. Like I don't think it was a personal takedown I just think it's it's it's just the first few graduates coming from, from a perspective that saying reforms, often don't work that built into the reform is a way of managing the system right, a type of greenwashing where you do the bad on one hand, and then you say I'm doing some good, some of the profits you make from that and you know I mean so it was just really really interesting to me. But the reason I mentioned it in our conversation is that it's kind of that perspective, that's like, oh, maybe this is all for not this is a waste of time because this is a kind of reform based society, right and incrementalist based society. And if I don't think incremental ism will get us there, then what hope is there, because I'm stuck in a structure that doesn't like revolutionary change. So you just made me. You made me think of that and it's it's a hard thing to contend with whether or not I get it that I am. Maybe I'm less likely to be killed, physically. Then, if I was walking around in Jim Crow South or whatever.

But, but, is the quality of my life, fundamentally unchanged, is that is the gap in chasm the difference between mine and someone of the same income level who's white. Is that difference qualitatively, the same from from years before my options is limited by it's just, yeah. It's a tough. It's a tough thing to contend with,

Duane Rollins  23:27

it also feels to me a lot like that. The conversation is happening around insiders versus outsiders. Right, of. Can you change the system from within. Or can you only reform it from being apart from it. And what I know about this is that there's always seems to be this dichotomy or this tension or this notion that there can only be one way to approach these problems. Right. And I think the nuance of the situation is that you actually need both right in order to be effective. Right. I don't think Malcolm would have been effective without Martin and Martin would have been effective without Malcolm right and kind of the positions on both. We're tired of what's happening and one is this will never happen. And you got to have your own thing and others like integration by is the way forward. I think you kind of need both aspects of it. But the idea of defining what outcome, doing one, right, and being clear about like those goals and that's what I think about my 2020 and beyond is that we say have things got better. But the question is, like, Well, what do we actually mean by better. Yeah, right. How do we define that are we just talking about the economic perspective or are we talking about perception are we talking about the means of opportunity, because, you know, black nihlism might really states that there's no such thing as the American dream for black people because America was inherently built on racist principles to, you know, or anti black principles to keep black people from achieving that dream that dream wasn't for them. Period. Right, right, right. Black optimism says the American Dream is our dream and it's still us right and we're still pushing that forward this idea of opportunity and if you work hard, you can get ahead. Based on your own, like merit and wishing, how this plays out in so many different conversations around. You know Equity and Inclusion right and the best ways to really approach that and, and again it's the same. You could say it's the same conversations that were happening in the 50s and 60s and 70s, even when you were thinking integration versus you know segregation and were we better off when it was just our communities together, versus us being integrated.

Victor Udoewa  25:54

Yeah I read a book. Sorry I didn't read it but I went to a talk by an author, it was a book talk, and I thought it was really insightful, what he said he wasn't specifically thinking about black people he was just thinking about the differences between the UK and the US, the book is specifically about the economic situation and economic dream in American Dream here in the US, but he made a statement about because he's a British guy, about the difference between British people and us people. He said, you know, in the UK, people know that there's limited. And for some people, no social mobility. Right. They are born into a class and that's the class they're going to die in. He said in the US. The same is true, but people don't know that. Like it somehow they've been told about a dream. That is achievable and attainable but for some reason the structures that keep us in our place are invisible to them so they don't realize that it actually is attainable and sometimes I think what happens like in the Obama cases, people often oftentimes, white, white people or predominately white groups will measure the possibility by the exception. Right. Look at that person because that was so without saying, Wait a minute, why am I using the exception what's indicative where's the average where's the medium what like what's going on. And so it was a really insightful comment I remember at that talk and I can share the book and resource as well, that we, we kind of don't know if that structure is invisible it gives it all the more its power to written is a really great book that talks about the structure called caste, the origins of content. Excellent. But I can't say enough about the book but really speaks to that, how we have this kind of race based caste system but also she differentiates caste from class from race. Because race is malleable there are times when certain people weren't considered white, as you know, and then they became white retired Jews slobs Irish Italians. When they came over to the US. But, but the caste structure of the dhanak has the lowest caste, which, which is occupied by black people, it has always been kind of in place even till today. So, it's a, it's really really interesting, the visibility, it gives us power.

Duane Rollins  28:19

Yeah, I think we are in a very very unique time today. Yeah, yeah, where we're at, is more visibility into that caste system, and more understanding that we thought there was not one but we're showing with evidence and data that this does in fact exist. So I think the next like 18 months are going to be incredibly important to seeing what we might do to really start addressing that because, again, the American dream is that there's no such thing as a caste system, right or the idea of the American dream that you know where you're born doesn't necessarily dictate where you end up in your lifetime. Now, what I will say is that generationally speaking. You can move through different classes, right but the American dream is that you yourself can go from wherever you are poor, to rich, usually in a span of 10 to 20 years right now and I'm being very specific about that time span because the idea is that if you work hard you work smart, you have some sort of outcome, usually within a decade or two, you can go from whatever class you are to something that is like big way beyond that. No, we're seeing it happen a lot for let's say like high, middle class. Right, people that are having a class are going to buy rich, like ultra rich. Right, particularly like in their lifetimes, but I don't know if we're seeing it from like the poor to the middle class or middle class to like, you know, high, middle class when the whole. We hear a lot of the exception stories of themselves, like around that.

Victor Udoewa  30:02

Yeah. You kind of, you kind of bring up the anti capitalist and because I think it's very difficult in our system, economic system right but our economic system is not just a system of the allocation of money but it's the allocation of power as well. We talk about capitalism it isn't a sense that type of system of governance at the same time, it's, it's very difficult to accumulate mass wealth in a way that decreases inequality, like, usually if you if you're accumulating mass wealth. Let's say you Jeff Bezos or something. There are people that are helping you to do that, that are not accumulating that well, and are getting paid. Not very much, but maybe doing most of the work, enabling most of the work right. So Mark's right. Going back to the 18 1800s 19 early 19 hundred's Marx is talked about that talk. He said he came over to the US right and he wrote about slavery and he saw like the liberation of slaves as a wonderful thing but he did talk about, you can move from one type of slavery to the next type of slavery. So we talked about wage wage slavery. Right, which is why he promoted a, regardless of the system. He was promoting he was seeing problems in capitalism that over the years seems almost inherent to it, like it's very difficult to do that so I don't know, there is this connection like Bell Hooks talks about the connection between class sex and race. Martin Luther King talks about connection between militarism capitalism and racism. Right. Reverend William Barber the second who former head of the NAACP in North Carolina talks about, and he's the head of the poor people's campaign talks about five interlocking and justices or evils he talks about mass, poverty, systemic racism ecological devastation the war economy and the false narrative of religious nationalism, you kind of brings them all together and shows how they all kind of feed on each other. So there is a there is a component like Angela Davis talks about how capitalism, in and of itself and this way here is practice he was racist, right. So, it's hard to talk about one without the other. It's hard to dismantle one without affecting the other, you know, so

Duane Rollins  32:37

the challenge to my, a lot of people have been exploring like democratic socialism or the Nordic model. Right. Yeah, and how those countries are like moving forward, but what you see. Sometimes in like socialism is like everybody agrees that socialism is good if it's just us. Right, right, but when it's others or outsiders that also benefit from it benefit from it. That's where there's real like issues and like tensions, right cuz like, Hey, we're helping Americans like great but the question, our country, particularly like what was it was American right because there's some they only believe there's a certain type of person is a patriot, and everybody else is not right. Yeah, regardless of like their citizenship where they were born here how long they lived here, you know get questions of people who have lived there their whole life in it for like multiple generations that people will want you to go back to Mexico, right or go back to China where you're in it's like where you're from is like, well, this is where the fun is where they grew up. So I think the idea of democratic socialism like is really interesting, and I think it should be explored more. But the question becomes, can you have democratic socialism in a society is still coping it hasn't really figured out how to address racism in general.

Victor Udoewa  33:54

Yeah, I mean that's the question I think that we're dealing with now. Well, in some sense, this is kind of a side, side points your point is this question of how do you make decisions. And so, there's this thing this phenomenon called minoritarian rule. Right, which I think is is part of what Stacey Abrams has been working against where I think if if you if you asked me, let me ask you, like if if every eligible. Right. Eligible person for voting like voter voting eligible person in the US voted. Right. With this select this past election, I'm talking about let's say a presidential election because we all have different states and counties and cities. Where do you think that the the bulk would have gone would you think do you think Biden would have won or do you think Trump would have won.

Duane Rollins  34:47

So I still would say Biden would have won but you can also look at the actual difference in numbers right from like the actual election you say the popular vote versus the Electoral College.

Victor Udoewa  35:01

Yeah, so that's what like for years, to me, I was trying to figure it out I don't know I don't know where this country is but one thing I know I want to know, I want everyone to vote. I want I want the races to vote I want supremacy. I want everybody vote because I want to know where this country is and then that lets me know Do I want to be here. Or if I want to go somewhere else, right. So I have this sneaking suspicion that maybe if everyone voted it wouldn't be the way and you and you kind of you, you get that feeling because there's a lot of people fighting people's votes rights voter suppression stuff like that. So then when I saw what happened in Georgia this year and I tried to help with it like I was phone banking and stuff like that I went I was trying to get out the vote. And even when I think in places like Texas, like I really believe like what is happening is that the minority of the people in some of these places, who are white are getting away because of various structures, whether it's the courts, whether it's gerrymandering whether it's voter suppression, every vote is not equal. And so when I have this conversation with certain people this is what they say. So we would wait a minute. Are you saying that, not because I'm now in the minority then I don't, then I don't get to like the person that I vote for doesn't win. And I say, yeah, that's what like that's how it works. and you can't complain about, like, oh, minority debt like, why shouldn't it be who I want even I'm in the minority when you didn't complain about it before, when you weren't in the minority, like it only matters now, I don't know, sorry I'm getting worked up a little bit, but the point is, we have this minority rule thing, and people are really opposing the changing demographics in this country, and there's going to be a continued fight, but I think there are more states that are like Georgia. I'm pretty sure that, and you will see, and we will hopefully we will see it depends on how the systems and the fight, go but you know we know this is a kind of a backlash the whole, the whole Supreme Court case, I think is Shelby vs holder in 2013 that allowed states to not get approval from the United States government before making voting laws, because they used to have to from when I sat there now they could just do whatever they want and I kind of voter suppression never stopped but not just like exacerbated is blew it up. So I, I think that thing bothers me when people are like, oh, but what about me that shouldn't. That's not fair if I'm an A minor, but but that's how it works. We're doing majority rule, like, I don't know that that kind of bothers me so yeah it's it's a it was a struggle, and

Duane Rollins  37:35

destiny. Yeah, yeah, I was I like the notion of like minorities rights are being flipped in ways that, again, the rules are changing mid game is kind of where everybody's frustration is but is not like hidden anymore and is much more blatant to where people who maybe were in the middle was like this doesn't really matter is that happen. They're seeing it happen so often in such blatant ways with such like really really poor like candidates right and people who like yet. Why would you want them in like if you have an option that it only has to be other things and that goes back to Tallahassee coats, like famous line that Donald Trump was the first white president. Right, where he really mentioned that, you know, because of who Donald Trump is and what he represents him, you know, he didn't have qualifications he wasn't necessarily well liked by a lot of people, but the only way that he could have been in this position is because he's a white male. It is no other like gender, race of people that could have done it things that he could have has did, and still one been allowed been elected been allowed to stay and been paroled it, it only happens, because he's a white male, like in this country so his argument is that he's the embodiment and really the first like white president, right on the US, and I think that's just something to keep in mind. So, Yeah, as we kind of think about where I go next. Any like parting thoughts.

Victor Udoewa  39:08

Here, the one thing I'll say, because I always bring up some really good things and I like 1000 things saying, and I don't always remember them all but one thing I wanted to note is that, in my experience in conversations with people across this country. I do realize that there is a growing consciousness, growing white consciousness of racial issues and problems and tensions that have always been there, and simultaneously, my party that is, there are still people, there's still groups of people, predominately white people who are not becoming more conscious of the stuff that's going on. And maybe it's because they only consume media with certain types of whether it's Facebook or, or Fox News or whatever but that the idea that everybody now is realizing isn't true it's it's some portions and yes more white people. But I don't know what I don't know where the balance is I don't know what the percentage is but there are people who are not more conscious. Now stuff that's going.

Duane Rollins  40:06

Yeah. So, with that being said, I think we have a lot of work to do. Moving forward, but specifically for black people I do think we have a black meal isn't something to really explore a lot more and be thoughtful by what does that mean but how do you channel that into policy, economic, you know, social wins that we think will help continue to uplift us to provide us an opportunity to just pursue the American dream and to pursue it freely right without obstruction, as is afforded to so many other people, but it is a mental block that we have to overcome. First, and there's also policy. Right, and structures that do need to be done in order for it to happen. There's, there's both of it but you first have to at least overcome that mental block and I think that's one of the advantages I haven't seen from the you know what I call the black immigrants versus black natives right and how they view the world, and maybe it's because they have the context of other systems and other places, and why this is you know presents more opportunity. But yeah, when you're, you're born in it, you know that it, even though if it's presenting more opportunity to other places it's not presented as much opportunity as as a 42 other people that are there also.

Victor Udoewa  41:28

And one thing I add another thing is that, I think I may not be an afro munis Africa's pessimist. I don't even know where I stand necessarily but I find solidarity with them because we ask, we're asking the same questions. So even though Malcolm and Martin had differences, he. They also ended up really close in a position to the end of the line, but they're asking the same questions. So I think that that kind of puts them on the same side, I want to close with a quote from Orlando Patterson I'll be real fast. He has a book called slavery and social death, which is where a lot of Afro pessimists draw from. He says we're going through a period of extreme despair about the situation of African Americans the most extreme form of this despair is a movement called Afro pessimism which holds that black Americans are still viewed as they were viewed in the slavery days as different inferior. And as outsiders. I find myself in an odd situation because Afro pessimists draw heavily on one of my books slavery social death, which is ironic because I'm not a pessimist. I don't think we're in a situation of social death, because one of the elements of social death is that you're not recognized as an integral member of the Civic community the public sphere. And we certainly are on the political and cultural levels, and we're very integrated in the military, which is the quintessence of what defines who belongs the afro pessimists are right though, two points persisting segregation in the private sphere. So, that sums up where Orlando Patterson he's a professor at Harvard lands. And again, we may not all come to the same conclusion, but we're asking the same questions and hopefully work towards same things.

Duane Rollins  42:57

I love that saying we're not may not all come to the same conclusions, but we're asking the same questions is exactly what we want to like kind of get to, when it comes to the conversation around this. So thank you again Victor. Beautiful. As always, and we'll do this again.